Was ist los in Libyen? Ursachen, Wirkung und Entwicklung / Sammelstrang

[schwarzweiß]

[QUOTE=Quo vadis;4933590]Was Neues von Saif Gaddafi

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QUOTE]

Saif Al Islam dementiert, daß für ihn der Kampf beendet sei und er sich stellen wolle:

"Den Getreuen des libyschen Volkes kann ich sagen, dass, falls wir hätten davon gehen wollen, dann wären wir fortgegangen bevor all dieser Preis bezahlt wurde. "

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[Quo vadis]

Ach, war das so ?
Warst Du dabei oder woher nimmst Du diese Erkenntnisse ?

Und sicherlich wurden die Aufständischen welche anfangs friedlich demonstriert hatten nicht von libyschen Sicherheitskräften erschossen sondern das waren getarnte USrealis. :rolleyes:

Du gehst halt den msm voll auf den Leim. Der Aufstand begann, indem ein SELBSTMORDATTENTÄTER das Tor der Garnision Bengasi aufsprengte. Seit wann bezeichnst du Selbstmordattentäter als "friedlich"?


Suicide Bomber Opens the Katiba


Note Sept. 30: When I first wrote this piece I did not know the formal name of the military barracks in question here. It's often called the Katiba, as used below, but that just means something like "brigade." But it's called the Al-Fadhil bin Omar barracks, at the time housing a brigade of that name.

Three months ago the other day, the Katiba barracks fell to what was becoming the Libyan rebel army. The large, loyal, and well-stocked military base in the middle of Benghazi would arm much of rebel-held Cyrenaica after defection of general Abdel Fatah Younes there on February 21. This came the day after the base's main gate was blown open, triggering a fierce battle within the sprawling complex. The swift culmination of that episode was a major turning point in the fate of the city, Libya's second largest and soon the de facto rebel capitol.

This post focuses on the opening of the gate by an act that, in any other context, would be denounced by the Western media as an act of terrorism. Consider this still from a Russia Today broadcast, showing the effects of a very powerful blast:


Further images of the damaged gate can be seen here, here and here.

Al Jazeera had an excellent photo but nothing much on the cause, mentioning this suicide bomber not at all.

A gaping hole in the northern wall of the compound, all twisted metal bars and jagged concrete blocks, marks the spot where protesters first managed to push through under a hail of gunfire. In white spray-paint, someone has written "Martyrs' Square" in Arabic on an unhinged metal gate that hangs off the breach.
But others give due mention of Mahdi Ziu, the middle-aged executive turned Jihadist. The Guardian, for one, reported two months later:

Ziu was not classic suicide-bomber material. He was a podgy, balding 48-year-old executive with the state oil company, married with daughters at home. There was no martyrdom video of the kind favoured by Hamas. He did not even tell his family his plan, although they had seen a change in him over the three days since the revolution began.
But Mr. Ziu (see tribute poster at left, from here) did drive an explosive car, we're told, from within a funeral procession, right at the Katiba's north gate and blew it open, probably killing some guards and helping make the heavy weapons inside available to all sorts of riff-raff. The Guardian's use of plastic language re-brands what elsewhere wouldbe termed a disaster and a heinous crime:

The Middle East. A man with a car fashioned into a bomb. He disguises his intent by joining a funeral cortege passing the chosen target. At the last minute the man swings the vehicle away, puts his foot down and detonates the propane canisters packed into the car.
It all sounds horrifyingly familiar. Mahdi Ziu was a suicide bomber in a region too often defined by people blowing up themselves and others. But, as with so much in Libya, the manner of Ziu's death defies the assumptions made about the uprisings in the Arab world by twitchy American politicians and generals who see Islamic extremism and al-Qaeda lurking in the shadows. Ziu's attack was an act of pure selflessness, not terror, and it may have saved Libya's revolution.
Admittedly, it was a rather violent selflessness, with further violent effects.

Then Ziu arrived, blew the main gates off the barracks and sent the soldiers scurrying to seek shelter inside. Within hours the Katiba had fallen.
[...]
What followed wasn't pretty. "(The revolutionaries) were beating Gaddafi people they captured, it's true. When they captured a Gaddafi soldier they said: 'What was this man doing? He was shooting us.' Gaddafi's soldiers wanted to kill anyone. They were using anti-aircraft weapons on humans. It cut people in half. People were angry," says Fasi. So angry that some of Gaddafi's soldiers were lynched. At least one was beheaded.

CNN reported the story a month earlier, but got the name a bit different, as Mendhi Ziu.

Confirmed: Hero Story of Benghazi Suicide Bomber
CNN reports that a man named Al Mendhi loaded his car with explosives and drove it into a military compound in Benghazi last week [...] Mr. Mendhi, a 49 year old oil company worker, is being hailed as a hero, because it was his sacrifice that enabled the resistance to overtake the barracks and roust Gadaffi's army, ultimately regaining the city of Benghazi. He had filled cylinders with cooking gas, packed them into his car, where he sat and prayed for half an hour before driving the car at high speed into the compound. His valiant efforts were not in vain.

Re-gaining Benghazi? When was it first lost?

His best friend reports that he carried the brave man's remains out of the car, and said that "If I didn't see it with my own eyes, I would not believe it myself."
There was a car left? There were remains? Is this the car? It looks just about like an other car looted and burned within the compound. It doesn't look blown up by the blast center responsible for ruptiuring the concrete gate building. I'm no explosives expert, but there seems ample room to wonder whether this was the result of exploding gas canisters at high speed, or of something quite a bit more professional-grade.



For what it's worth, I confirmed the location from imagae analysis of the Russia Today footage. By background structures, I decided it's clearly the north gate, the west lane (inbound?) passage. These images show my work.






Update, Sept. 30: This historic bombing of the north gate and guard house - either the actiual blast or the destruction after - is something that, like protesters being shot, is simply absent from " "protester" videos. Russia today showed it, outside media showed it, but somehow the people who did it seem to have kept it mum,as if that would help us fail to notice they were"protesting" places to smithereens.

It also has a way of being glossed over or ignored in mainstream run-downs of the battle for Benghazi. For example, the UN's Human Rights Council issued a report on June 1 (PDFlink) about the early violence. It could and should have addressed this particular act but somehow missed it. They make note of an extracted "admission of involvement by a member of the security forces," in rebel detention, "in the random shooting of protestors in Benghazi on 20 February."

Their statistics show the biggest spike of daily deaths that day - 60 to the previous 20 and 20 (on the 17th and 19th). But they thought this was from an extreme, random-shooting punishment because "government opponents assumed control over the Katiba premises," in some unspecified way with no mention of a terrorist suicide bomber, "on 19 February!" No wonder their conclusions were so warped - these guys were confused on major events like this, which aren't even hard to figure out just with a Google search and no airfare required. The question remains whether this type of goof-up is accidental or part of some design

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[Thauris]

Ach, war das so ?
Warst Du dabei oder woher nimmst Du diese Erkenntnisse ?

Und sicherlich wurden die Aufständischen welche anfangs friedlich demonstriert hatten nicht von libyschen Sicherheitskräften erschossen sondern das waren getarnte USrealis. :rolleyes:

Also Heiligen- Gaddafi trifft keine Schuld und der Sicherheitsrat der Vereinten Nationen hat einfach mal aus Lust und Dollerei die Resolution 1973 erlassen welche die andere Staaten dazu ermächtigt, Zivilisten mit militärischen Mitteln zu schützen ?
Und natürlich sind es nur die bösen USraelis die Luftangriffe auf die Streitkräfte und Regierungseinrichtungen des Gaddafi-Regime geflogen sind und nicht eine internationale Koalition ? :rolleyes:



Kann ich Dir sagen.
Ich lebe in einem Universum welches zumindest seit meiner Geburt keinen Krieg im Land hatte, in welchem ich nicht in einen Luftschutzraum flüchten mußte, in welchem ich nicht auf Lebensmittelmarken angewiesen war, in welchem ich nicht zwangsweise einem Irren huldigen muß und mit dem Tode bedroht bin wenn ich auch nur leise Kritik anbringen würde,
in welchem ich relativ frei reden kann, in welchem ich die Möglichkeit hatte mein Leben selbstbestimmt zu führen und dabei für mich das Beste herauszuholen.
Es ist nicht perfekt aber sehr lebenswert.
In so einem Universum lebe ich - und Du ?

Du wirst Dich wundern, aber ja, für mich bedeutet Demokratie nicht das ich meinen unbedeutenden Senf zu jedem Furz dazugeben muß der irgendwem quer sitzt und ich möchte auch nicht wegen jedem Furz um Erlaubnis gebeten werden.
Es wäre ja schön wenn alles nach meinem Gusto laufen würde, das Problem dabei ist nur, daß das auch Millionen andere so wollen.




Das Märchen mit der Besetzung wird nicht wahrer nur weil es immer wieder wiederholt wird.
Die noch hier stationierten Kräfte sind auf Wunsch der jeweiligen Bundesregierungen noch hier. Mich stören die jedenfalls nicht.
Und wie wir unsere Selbstbestimmung genutzt haben, konnten wir ja mit 2. Kriegen wunderbar unter Beweis stellen.

Und wir haben nun einmal Gesetze die es zu befolgen gilt.
Mit denen muß man nicht übereinstimmen, wer das nicht tut kann jederzeit politisch aktiv werden und den deutschen Michel versuchen zu überzeugen was sein Traum von Demokratie ist.
Aber, er hat die Möglichkeit, also rede hier nicht von mangelnder Demokratie oder Freiheit, selbst wenn sie nicht perfekt ist- im Vergleich zu Ländern der arabischen Welt.




Nun laß doch das libysche Volk erst mal machen ohne gleich den Besserwisser zu machen.
Immerhin hat das Volk nun die Möglichkeit die es unter Heiigen- Gaddafi nicht hatte.
Das muß uns ja evtl. nicht gefallen aber es ist nicht unsere Entscheidung.

Na endlich mal Klartext - hervorragender Beitrag!

Das Problem in diesem Land ist, dass hier keiner Probleme hat und deswegen überall seinen Rüssel reinhängen muss mit spinnerten Verschwörungstheorien, um sich die Langeweile zu vertreiben!

[Branka]

Also ich kann immer wieder nur betonen! F**** NATO and Hillary Clinton und deren Konsorten!

Die libyschen Frauen sind schon bestimmt ganz heiss auf die Sharia!

[Steiner]

Ein Reutersbericht! aus Sirte:

(Reuters) - Residents of Muammar Gaddafi's home town of Sirte are struggling to come to terms with the destruction and humiliation of their city, a former fishing village which once had aspirations to be the "capital of Africa".

After rebels captured swathes of Libya, Gaddafi sought sanctuary in the city he had groomed as an international hub with its own grand conference center. During an eight-week siege, much of Sirte was reduced to rubble in fighting between Gaddafi loyalists and fighters of the new interim government.

"We never expected such destruction," said a resident who gave his name as Abu Abdul-Rahman, pointing to his bullet-riddled television and broken furniture. "Is this what they call a revolution? We chose to flee instead of fighting and still they destroyed our homes."

He added: "They treated us like animals who didn't deserve to be protected."

Many in Sirte resent the soldiers of Libya's new leaders, who they blame for Gaddafi's humiliating capture and death last week and for what they say was the deliberate destruction of the city.

"We lived with Gaddafi for 42 years. He never attacked our houses with his army," said another Sirte resident, sitting in his damaged house. "Muammar lived and died like a man," he added, Gaddafi's green flag still hoisted atop his house.

The gruesome display of Gaddafi's body in a cold room in the neighboring city of Misrata has infuriated members of his tribe and many Sirte residents.

"People will not forget the humiliation that happened to him. I am not from his tribe, but I tell you, I will not forget what happened to him," said the resident, who declined to be named.

Fighters from Misrata handed the decaying bodies of Gaddafi and his son Mo'tassim, who was also captured alive in Sirte last week, for burial at a secret desert location on Tuesday.

A week after it fell to fighters with the National Transitional Council (NTC), Sirte still looks like a ghost town. Most of its 100,000 residents had fled the fighting.

On Thursday, some volunteers were seen sweeping rubble and broken glass on streets lined with burned cars and damaged buildings. Others helped medical workers search for the dead.

In some areas, the stench from rotting corpses covered with flies forced medical workers to wear masks. Parts of bodies burned beyond recognition were put in plastic bags.

Some 300 bodies were found and buried in the past few days, local people and medical workers said. Locals buried 25 bodies on Wednesday, including ten which were found floating in a water pool with their hands tied behind their backs.

"EXECUTION"

New York-based Human Rights Watch this week called on the NTC to investigate a suspected mass execution of 53 Gaddafi loyalists whose bodies were found last week near an abandoned hotel in a part of Sirte that was controlled by its fighters.

Pro- and anti-Gaddafi graffiti sprayed on the walls of Sirte highlight the deep divisions entrenched in Libya's tribal society and the risk that those tensions could boil over in a country awash with weapons.

On several street walls, "Misrata, the city of resistance" was sprayed over "Allah, Muammar, Libya and that's all," a chant that Gaddafi supporters used to sing during the eight-month revolt.

NTC leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil addressed those concerns during a speech on Sunday to mark Libya's liberation from 42 years of one-man rule, urging national reconciliation and respect for the rule of law.

"I call on everyone for forgiveness, tolerance and reconciliation. We must get rid of hatred and envy from our souls. This is a necessary matter for the success of the revolution and the success of the future Libya," he said.

But for now the mood in Sirte is one of revenge.

Sitting on a pile of rubble outside his house, another Sirte resident, who declined to give his name said: "There is something burning inside me here," pointing to his chest. "I want to take my weapon and go to Misrata."

Locals believe NTC fighters deliberately used excessive force during battles with Gaddafi supporters holed up in Sirte to punish its residents for their support of the former leader.

"Yes, Muammar is dead, but it is true what he said, they are rats, when the destruction is like that, they are rats," shouted another angry resident. "They are terrorists, not revolutionaries".

Walking through his ruined house, resident Abdul-Halim said: "Sirte is finished. It will never be the same again."

(Writing by Joseph Nasr; Editing by Rosalind Russell)

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[Felix Krull]

Na endlich mal Klartext - hervorragender Beitrag!

Das Problem in diesem Land ist, dass hier keiner Probleme hat und deswegen überall seinen Rüssel reinhängen muss mit spinnerten Verschwörungstheorien, um sich die Langeweile zu vertreiben!

Als angepasster Mitläufer hat man nie Probleme.

henriof9 hätte seinen Beitrag auch als Bürger der DDR in den 60ern oder 70ern schreiben können. Auch dort war nichts perfekt, es gab genug zu essen und keinen Krieg. Die Sowjets waren auf Wunsch der Regierung dort, und naja, wer mosert, der hat gewiss was zu verbergen oder er ist ein notorischer Querulant.

Du verkörperst beispiel- und gewissenhaft die Duckmäuser und Mitläufermentalität, die man den Deutschen so gern nachsagt.

[Thauris]

Als angepasster Mitläufer hat man nie Probleme.

henriof9 hätte seinen Beitrag auch als Bürger der DDR in den 60ern oder 70ern schreiben können. Auch dort war nichts perfekt, es gab genug zu essen und keinen Krieg. Die Sowjets waren auf Wunsch der Regierung dort, und naja, wer mosert, der hat gewiss was zu verbergen oder er ist ein notorischer Querulant.

Du verkörperst beispiel- und gewissenhaft die Duckmäuser und Mitläufermentalität, die man den Deutschen so gern nachsagt.

Ach - wäre es Dir lieber es gäbe Krieg und nicht genug zu essen? Genau das ist es nämlich, was ihr wirklich braucht um endlich mal mitzukriegen, dass eure dämlichen Pillepalle-Befindlichkeiten nicht den Mittelpunkt des Universums darstellen.

[Don]

Ach, war das so ?
Warst Du dabei oder woher nimmst Du diese Erkenntnisse ?

Und sicherlich wurden die Aufständischen welche anfangs friedlich demonstriert hatten nicht von libyschen Sicherheitskräften erschossen sondern das waren getarnte USrealis. :rolleyes:

Libyen ist nicht Syrien. In Libyen gabe es keine friedlichen Demonstranten auf die eine Armee hätte schießen können, es wird immer bunter hier.
In Libyen starteten von UNS bewaffnete, mit Militärberatern ausgestattete Warlords einen Aufstand, bei dem sich unsere Geheimdienste die Fehden zwischen diesen Clans und der Gaddafi Clique zunutze machten.
Wie gutmenschlich belämmert muß man eigentlich sein um davor die Augen zu verschließen?

Glaubt doch um Himmels Willen nicht diesen kolossalen Mist, diese galaktischen Lügen von Völkern die nach Demokratie lechzen und in Ghandi Manier friedlich gegen ihre Unterdrücker demonstrieren. Selbst wenn ein paar für unsere Qualitätsmedien nach vorne geschickt werden, sie sind bestenfalls Kanonenfutter. Dahinter stehen wirklich häßliche Fratzen. Aber gut, wer nicht glaubt daß die Herdplatte heiß ist soll eben drauflangen mit seinen Patschehändchen.

[Don]

Ach - wäre es Dir lieber es gäbe Krieg und nicht genug zu essen? Genau das ist es nämlich, was ihr wirklich braucht um endlich mal mitzukriegen, dass eure dämlichen Pillepalle-Befindlichkeiten nicht den Mittelpunkt des Universums darstellen.

Wie süß.

[Thauris]

Wie süß.

Isses etwa nicht so? Wer nix zu fressen hat, schert sich keinen Deut um die Probleme anderer Länder oder strickt an dusseligen Verschwörungstheorien. Keine Probleme ist das grösste Problem in diesem Land.