Was ist los in Libyen? Ursachen, Wirkung und Entwicklung / Sammelstrang

[Efna]

Gaddafi mag ein Diktator gewesen zu sein aber das was ihm folgt dürfte noch weitaus schlimmer sein.
Der Arabische Frühling ist nichts anderes als eine Machtübernahme von Islamistischen Terroristen.

Ob nun blutiger Diktator oder Scharia Staat in Hinsicht auf den Humanismus ist beides gleichermassen eine Katastrophe, die Frage ist nur ob es überhaupt so eine Gesellschaft mit humanistischen Werten wie bei uns dort in der momentanen Lage möglich ist...

[Widder58]

Vor allem aber hast Du diese Zeilen aus dem Zusammenhang gerissen, um Dich einfach auszukotzen. Mieser Stil.

Die Aussage war eindeutig

[sonnesuchtige]

Könnten wir bitte erst das Merkel nehmen?

Jawohl, aber "erst" werden sie Bürgerkrieg nehmen, dann demokratische Bombenangriffe, dann Friedenstruppe, demnächst "das Merkel", schließlich wird der Staat vernichtet und alle Betrieben abgekauft werden. Wie im Libyen.

[Parker]

Ich erlaube mir mal diese beiden Blogbeiträge eines Libyers komplett hierherzukopieren, da ich sie für diskutabel halte und sie kaum direkt zu verlinken sind.

Zu finden auf [Links nur für registrierte Nutzer]



rooh_mukhtar 19 hours ago

realy ignorant views of Libya: here is are some myths and responses about Gaddafi's LibyaThere are no electricity bills in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.Categorically untrue. Despite poor electricity infrastructure and poor coverage of electricity lines, even in the Capital, Libyan home owners pay monthly/quarterly (area dependant) electricity bills based on meter readings. Electricity is cut off in instances of unpaid bills. Reconnection upon payment is not instant. The electric infrastructure is week and some areas of Libya do not have electricity available at all. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.Categorically untrue. Banks all over Libya have been giving out loans for years and years. There is a percentage rate charge on all loans, which is comparable to an interest rate, but in the spirit of ‘islamic ethics’ it is not called interest, it is called an ‘Administrative Expense’ – Masareef Edareeya. A House is considered a human right in Libya ¬ Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi¹s father has died while he, his wife and his mother are still living in a tent.Well Gaddafi abused this human right as much as he did other basic rights. It is well known in Libya that political opponents, or just successful business men/women, had their homes confiscated and handed over to regime members, usually rewards for Free Officers – Dubat A7rar. Many farms and homes and businesses were confiscated during three infamous phases of Libyas dictatorial history:1969 – The dreaded Green Revolution. Free Officers were rewarded land, homes, and farms that sometimes belonged to other people and the original owners were not compensated or asked if this was ok. Late 70’s - The introduction of the law Albayt le Sakinehee – The Home Belongs to its Dwellers. As this law was passed overnight, thousands of homeowners instantly lost their homes, as tenants (those renting the homes) claimed ownership on account of being the ‘dwellers’. The law applied to homes, farms, shops, etc.90’s - The introduction of Purification Committees (Lejnat al Tatheer). This committee ran by the widely know slogan, ‘Min ayna laka hada?’ – “From where did you obtain this?”, a form of ultra-socialism where people’s possessions, including homes and businesses, were confiscated if seen to be ‘surplus to requirement’ or contributing to a ‘monopoly’.Regarding Gaddafis ‘vow’: While Gaddafi waited for ‘everyone in Libya’ to be housed, he himself lived in a sprawling 6km square compound in the centre of the capital which was home to state of the art security and an underground network of rooms and ultramodern bunkers. He also had a vast and well known farm on Airport Road in Tripoli. This, just in the capital. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.This is a well known rumour and a common joke in Libya. Whilst it may have been passed as official legislation, I know of not a single family who has been given this grant. The backbreaking bureaucracy associated with such grants and loans make them more or less impossible to obtain. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.Education and Health Care – Free does not mean adequate. It is well known that Libya’s standard of health care is nothing short of appalling. It is widely known that the majority of Libyans seeking medical care leave for neighbouring countries for treatment. Our Education system is no better. It is outdated, teachers are underpaid and under-trained and libraries are largely non-existent. The syllabus was constantly being revised and reviewed under direct instruction from the former regime e.g. banning English, changing Quranic verses, etc.It is commonly said that Libyans would be happy to forfeit their ‘free health care’ and pay for a National Health Service if it was up to the required standard. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and Livestock to kick- start their farms all for free.This has never happened, in addition to this many farms and homes have been confiscated by the government to build railroads, The Great Man Made River and civil roads.The owners of the land were only compensated if there was a covered structure on the land as the Gaddafi regime legally owned any land and the people were only allowed to build on it. When there was compensation offered it was nowhere near the actual value of the property and many waited years to receive anything if at all. This system was also rife with corruption many residents told they had to pay a bribe to receive what little they were given. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it not only free but they get $2, 300/month accommodation and car allowance.Categorically untrue. If this was the case, the former regime would have been in receipt of 6 million application forms – one for every man, women and child who ‘cannot find education or medical facilities they need’. This grant does not exist for the mainstream public. There is anectdotal evidence of some medical grants being given but again, the system was corrupt and opaque. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government pays 50% of the price. ‎The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.There is no truth to the former Gaddafi regime paying 50% of the value of a new car. Whilst the price of fuel is indeed cheap, the quality of roads, the accuracy and availability of road signs, the presence of road traffic police, and all other transport infrastructure is of abysmal standard.The absence of an integrated and functional public transport system means that people are reliant on their cars for all movement and might end up paying more on fuel than our neighbours around the Mediterranean basin. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion now frozen globally.Whilst our sovereign wealth is undeniable, none of it was spent on the people of Libya nor the infrastructure of the country. Basic amenities, services, and state infrastructure are either absent or of appalling standard.The availability of money is not tantamount to wealth or prosperity. The Arabs have a saying about Libya – “A rich nation of poor inhabitants” If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.Categorically untrue. Even basic wages are sometimes unpaid for months, for those lucky enough to be employed. Welfare for the unemployed is non-existent. A portion of Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.No basis to this claim as no such case can be found. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US $5 ,000Categorically untrue. There is a Child Benefit welfare payment in Libya – it is roughly 15-20 Libyan Dinars a month per child. No Libyan citizen was given foreign currency as compensation. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15Bread was subsidized by the state. Whilst the price varies (marginally) from shop to shop, bread usually costs ¼ dinars for 10 baguettes (small) or roughly 500grams per dinar. 25% of Libyans have a university degreeThe absence of a comprehensive selection process and a corrupt entry protocol means that universities in Libya are grossly over populated and over subscribed, despite limited facilities. This results in an over inflated number of graduates, but not necessarily an adequate level of employability. There are thousands of students studying foundation year medicine in Tripoli alone.
Flag Bivi and 50 more liked this Like ReplyReply
rooh_mukhtar 5 hours ago

Please do not forget that in addition to the material and infrastructure distruction of Gaddafi's 42 year rule, the most signifcant crime is his human right record: the killing of thousands of innocent civilians, in prison, or as a result of torture, or deliberate mass killing, most famously the massacre at Abu Salim prison in 1996. Mass graves continue to be discovered throughout Libya since the begining the revolution and the downfall of the Gaddafi regime.It is also worth mentioning that the United States (prior to Obama) and Britain were involved in the torture and rendition of opposition figures, including current prominent figures of the opposition.Here is a prtial list of some of Gaddafi's public crimes- (not including the 1270 Abu-slim massacre, victims which we have the names of each victim, or others who pereished during the revolution):Public Executions of Civilians in the 1980′s, by way of example - 1 – Omar Ali Debub (teacher and the university students participated in the demonstrations in January 1976): executed by hanging on 6 April 1977 in front of the Socialist Union building in Benghazi
2 – Mohammed Bin Saud Al-Tayeb (teacher and the university students participated in the demonstrations in January 1976): executed by hanging on 6 April 1977 in front of the Socialist Union building in Benghazi
3 – Ahmed Fouad Fathallah (an Egyptian): executed by hanging on 6 April 1977 at the port of Benghazi Sea
4 – Saleh Ali al-Zarouk Al-Nawal (teacher): April 1982 was executed in prison
5 – Mohammed Muhatthab Ihfaf (college student): Hanged on April 7, 1983 in the Faculty of Engineering at the University of Tripoli
6 – Nimr Khaled Khamis (Palestinian teacher) : Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
7 – Nasser Mohammad Sares (Palestinian teacher) – : Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
8 – Ali Ahmed Awadallah (Palestinian teacher) – Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
9 – Hasan Bader Al Badi (Palestinian teacher) –: Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
11 – Hassan Ahmad al-Kurdi (student) : April 1984 was executed in prison12 – Abdullah Abu al-Qasim Msallati (student) –: April 1984 executed secretly in prison without trial
13 – Rashid Mansour Kaabar (college student) – it was claimed that he was from the followers of Sheikh Al-Bishti – executed by hanging on 16 April 1984 in Tripoli, Faculty of Pharmacy
14 – Hafidh al-Madani (college student): executed by hanging on 16 April 1984 at the Faculty of Agriculture
15 – Mustafa al-Nouweiri: executed by hanging on 21 April 1984 at the University of Benghazid. Assassinations carried out abroad in the 1980′s, by way of example:1 – Mohamed Mustafa Ramadan (radio reporter,): 11 April 1980 he was assassinated outside the mosque after Friday prayers in London
2 – Mahmoud Abdel-Salam Nafi (lawyer): 21 April 1980, was assassinated in Britain
3 – Arif Abdul Jalil (businessman): 19 April 1980, was assassinated in Rome
4 – Abdul Latif alMuntasir (businessman): 21 April 1980, was assassinated in Beirut
5 – Gabriel Abdel Razek al-Dinaly (a police officer and a popular poet): 6 April 1985, was assassinated in Bonn, Germany

[Parker]

Die Aussage war eindeutig

Leider paßte sie nur nicht zu Deiner Antwort auf sie.

[Thauris]

Ich erlaube mir mal diese beiden Blogbeiträge eines Libyers komplett hierherzukopieren, da ich sie für diskutabel halte und sie kaum direkt zu verlinken sind.

Zu finden auf [Links nur für registrierte Nutzer]



rooh_mukhtar 19 hours ago

realy ignorant views of Libya: here is are some myths and responses about Gaddafi's LibyaThere are no electricity bills in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.Categorically untrue. Despite poor electricity infrastructure and poor coverage of electricity lines, even in the Capital, Libyan home owners pay monthly/quarterly (area dependant) electricity bills based on meter readings. Electricity is cut off in instances of unpaid bills. Reconnection upon payment is not instant. The electric infrastructure is week and some areas of Libya do not have electricity available at all. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.Categorically untrue. Banks all over Libya have been giving out loans for years and years. There is a percentage rate charge on all loans, which is comparable to an interest rate, but in the spirit of ‘islamic ethics’ it is not called interest, it is called an ‘Administrative Expense’ – Masareef Edareeya. A House is considered a human right in Libya ¬ Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi¹s father has died while he, his wife and his mother are still living in a tent.Well Gaddafi abused this human right as much as he did other basic rights. It is well known in Libya that political opponents, or just successful business men/women, had their homes confiscated and handed over to regime members, usually rewards for Free Officers – Dubat A7rar. Many farms and homes and businesses were confiscated during three infamous phases of Libyas dictatorial history:1969 – The dreaded Green Revolution. Free Officers were rewarded land, homes, and farms that sometimes belonged to other people and the original owners were not compensated or asked if this was ok. Late 70’s - The introduction of the law Albayt le Sakinehee – The Home Belongs to its Dwellers. As this law was passed overnight, thousands of homeowners instantly lost their homes, as tenants (those renting the homes) claimed ownership on account of being the ‘dwellers’. The law applied to homes, farms, shops, etc.90’s - The introduction of Purification Committees (Lejnat al Tatheer). This committee ran by the widely know slogan, ‘Min ayna laka hada?’ – “From where did you obtain this?”, a form of ultra-socialism where people’s possessions, including homes and businesses, were confiscated if seen to be ‘surplus to requirement’ or contributing to a ‘monopoly’.Regarding Gaddafis ‘vow’: While Gaddafi waited for ‘everyone in Libya’ to be housed, he himself lived in a sprawling 6km square compound in the centre of the capital which was home to state of the art security and an underground network of rooms and ultramodern bunkers. He also had a vast and well known farm on Airport Road in Tripoli. This, just in the capital. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.This is a well known rumour and a common joke in Libya. Whilst it may have been passed as official legislation, I know of not a single family who has been given this grant. The backbreaking bureaucracy associated with such grants and loans make them more or less impossible to obtain. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.Education and Health Care – Free does not mean adequate. It is well known that Libya’s standard of health care is nothing short of appalling. It is widely known that the majority of Libyans seeking medical care leave for neighbouring countries for treatment. Our Education system is no better. It is outdated, teachers are underpaid and under-trained and libraries are largely non-existent. The syllabus was constantly being revised and reviewed under direct instruction from the former regime e.g. banning English, changing Quranic verses, etc.It is commonly said that Libyans would be happy to forfeit their ‘free health care’ and pay for a National Health Service if it was up to the required standard. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and Livestock to kick- start their farms all for free.This has never happened, in addition to this many farms and homes have been confiscated by the government to build railroads, The Great Man Made River and civil roads.The owners of the land were only compensated if there was a covered structure on the land as the Gaddafi regime legally owned any land and the people were only allowed to build on it. When there was compensation offered it was nowhere near the actual value of the property and many waited years to receive anything if at all. This system was also rife with corruption many residents told they had to pay a bribe to receive what little they were given. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it not only free but they get $2, 300/month accommodation and car allowance.Categorically untrue. If this was the case, the former regime would have been in receipt of 6 million application forms – one for every man, women and child who ‘cannot find education or medical facilities they need’. This grant does not exist for the mainstream public. There is anectdotal evidence of some medical grants being given but again, the system was corrupt and opaque. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government pays 50% of the price. ‎The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.There is no truth to the former Gaddafi regime paying 50% of the value of a new car. Whilst the price of fuel is indeed cheap, the quality of roads, the accuracy and availability of road signs, the presence of road traffic police, and all other transport infrastructure is of abysmal standard.The absence of an integrated and functional public transport system means that people are reliant on their cars for all movement and might end up paying more on fuel than our neighbours around the Mediterranean basin. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion now frozen globally.Whilst our sovereign wealth is undeniable, none of it was spent on the people of Libya nor the infrastructure of the country. Basic amenities, services, and state infrastructure are either absent or of appalling standard.The availability of money is not tantamount to wealth or prosperity. The Arabs have a saying about Libya – “A rich nation of poor inhabitants” If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.Categorically untrue. Even basic wages are sometimes unpaid for months, for those lucky enough to be employed. Welfare for the unemployed is non-existent. A portion of Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.No basis to this claim as no such case can be found. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US $5 ,000Categorically untrue. There is a Child Benefit welfare payment in Libya – it is roughly 15-20 Libyan Dinars a month per child. No Libyan citizen was given foreign currency as compensation. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15Bread was subsidized by the state. Whilst the price varies (marginally) from shop to shop, bread usually costs ¼ dinars for 10 baguettes (small) or roughly 500grams per dinar. 25% of Libyans have a university degreeThe absence of a comprehensive selection process and a corrupt entry protocol means that universities in Libya are grossly over populated and over subscribed, despite limited facilities. This results in an over inflated number of graduates, but not necessarily an adequate level of employability. There are thousands of students studying foundation year medicine in Tripoli alone.
Flag Bivi and 50 more liked this Like ReplyReply
rooh_mukhtar 5 hours ago

Please do not forget that in addition to the material and infrastructure distruction of Gaddafi's 42 year rule, the most signifcant crime is his human right record: the killing of thousands of innocent civilians, in prison, or as a result of torture, or deliberate mass killing, most famously the massacre at Abu Salim prison in 1996. Mass graves continue to be discovered throughout Libya since the begining the revolution and the downfall of the Gaddafi regime.It is also worth mentioning that the United States (prior to Obama) and Britain were involved in the torture and rendition of opposition figures, including current prominent figures of the opposition.Here is a prtial list of some of Gaddafi's public crimes- (not including the 1270 Abu-slim massacre, victims which we have the names of each victim, or others who pereished during the revolution):Public Executions of Civilians in the 1980′s, by way of example - 1 – Omar Ali Debub (teacher and the university students participated in the demonstrations in January 1976): executed by hanging on 6 April 1977 in front of the Socialist Union building in Benghazi
2 – Mohammed Bin Saud Al-Tayeb (teacher and the university students participated in the demonstrations in January 1976): executed by hanging on 6 April 1977 in front of the Socialist Union building in Benghazi
3 – Ahmed Fouad Fathallah (an Egyptian): executed by hanging on 6 April 1977 at the port of Benghazi Sea
4 – Saleh Ali al-Zarouk Al-Nawal (teacher): April 1982 was executed in prison
5 – Mohammed Muhatthab Ihfaf (college student): Hanged on April 7, 1983 in the Faculty of Engineering at the University of Tripoli
6 – Nimr Khaled Khamis (Palestinian teacher) : Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
7 – Nasser Mohammad Sares (Palestinian teacher) – : Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
8 – Ali Ahmed Awadallah (Palestinian teacher) – Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
9 – Hasan Bader Al Badi (Palestinian teacher) –: Executed by hanging in front of students on 7 April 1983 al-Fatih secondary school in Ajdabiyya
11 – Hassan Ahmad al-Kurdi (student) : April 1984 was executed in prison12 – Abdullah Abu al-Qasim Msallati (student) –: April 1984 executed secretly in prison without trial
13 – Rashid Mansour Kaabar (college student) – it was claimed that he was from the followers of Sheikh Al-Bishti – executed by hanging on 16 April 1984 in Tripoli, Faculty of Pharmacy
14 – Hafidh al-Madani (college student): executed by hanging on 16 April 1984 at the Faculty of Agriculture
15 – Mustafa al-Nouweiri: executed by hanging on 21 April 1984 at the University of Benghazid. Assassinations carried out abroad in the 1980′s, by way of example:1 – Mohamed Mustafa Ramadan (radio reporter,): 11 April 1980 he was assassinated outside the mosque after Friday prayers in London
2 – Mahmoud Abdel-Salam Nafi (lawyer): 21 April 1980, was assassinated in Britain
3 – Arif Abdul Jalil (businessman): 19 April 1980, was assassinated in Rome
4 – Abdul Latif alMuntasir (businessman): 21 April 1980, was assassinated in Beirut
5 – Gabriel Abdel Razek al-Dinaly (a police officer and a popular poet): 6 April 1985, was assassinated in Bonn, Germany

Na der lügt doch wie gedruckt, das ist bestimmt einer dieser pösen Rebellen der solche Gerüchte über den Oberst Wohltäter in die Welt setzt :rolleyes:

[Hoamat]

Na der lügt doch wie gedruckt, das ist bestimmt einer dieser pösen Rebellen der solche Gerüchte über den Oberst Wohltäter in die Welt setzt :rolleyes:

Nein, nein Spatzi !
Ein Libyer lügt nicht !!!!! Lasse Dir das gesagt sein, und Parkers Quellen sind immer lupenrein

[Parker]

Nein, nein Spatzi !
Ein Libyer lügt nicht !!!!! Lasse Dir das gesagt sein, und Parkers Quellen sind immer lupenrein

Was hast Du an Aljazeera auszusetzen?

[Hoamat]

Was hast Du an Aljazeera auszusetzen?

Ich meine nicht Aljazeera, sondern den Inhalt als solchen.
Aber diese Sätze wie Kindergeld usw. waren ganz sicher nicht für Alle gleich ... also subjektiv.
Das soll aber nicht heissen, dass ich der anderen Seite immer glaube.

[Parker]

Ich meine nicht Aljazeera, sondern den Inhalt als solchen.
Aber diese Sätze wie Kindergeld usw. waren ganz sicher nicht für Alle gleich ... also subjektiv.
Das soll aber nicht heissen, dass ich der anderen Seite immer glaube.

Ich weiß natürlich auch nicht, ob der Autor die Wahrheit schreibt, oder auch nur echt ist. Allerdings wagt er es in einem Blog verifizierbare Angaben zu machen, in dem auch Leute lesen und schreiben, die diese verifizieren können. Das unterscheidet ihn meines Erachtens schonmal positiv von Schreibern, die hier einfach mal Libyen zum Schlaraffenland erklären, wo es weit und breit niemanden gibt, der dieses Schlaraffenland schonmal aus der Nähe gesehen haben könnte.